On Sun, 7 Apr 2019 at 06:38, Phil Pugliese (via tml list) <xxxxxx@simplelists.com> wrote:
Hey, Ken, too bad you weren't in charge!

But, speaking of 'fleets', I'll never believe that there was any way that Dulinor could've even come close to stopping the 'Vengeance Fleet'.
Illelish was, at best, a back-water sector/domain that never could've built up enough naval strength in such a short period of time.
The 3I was just too cumbersome for that w/o some sort of 'full mobilization for war" at least a decade in advance. (War? What war? Strephon's administrators ask?)
His whole strategy hung on the idea that he could seize the aerial Imperial Palace & put himself on the Iridium Throne.
Once that failed, he was done, done, & done.

Dear Phil,

Once again, I think the case of Roman coups (both pre- and post-476) are illustrative.  It wasn't a case of Illelish versus the rest.  It was the case of there being a dozen or so sector fleets [Legions], with a couple in the right place at the right time willing to place their candidate on the throne.  

*  Uprising against Strephon - not a chance, fleets and Moot back the incumbent.
*  Coup and "right of assassination", with a clean-out of the Alkhalikoi heirs - good chance of presenting the Moot and the other sector fleets with a fait accompli.  They MIGHT chuck Dulinor out, but first they would need to agree on a viable candidate, and even then you might be looking at a prolonged Civil War.

But even when the coup failed, the "march on Capital" strategy is viable for Dulinor (and Sulla, and Caesar, and Constantine, and Heraclius).  One prepared and motivated Sector Fleet, possibly supported by other "duped" Sector Fleets (Verge?, Zarushagar?) coming up against just the Core fleet ... and even the Core fleet is likely to be in a bit of disarray.  At this point, it is just a war of Fleets.  No need to grind out planetary invasions and occupations.  Just get the heck to Capitol before anyone knows was has happened.

Once the Corridor, Lishun, and Old Expanses fleets declare for Lucan ... yeah, the game is up for "Emperor Dulinor" at that point.  Dulinor did the sensible thing, and switched to a "come and get me" strategy.  The nature of the war now became a grind "take and occupy worlds", so Dulinor was able to sustain his faction despite being out-numbered.  Lucan's talent of starting new fights (or, more charitably, needing to deal with external invasions and less-than-completely-loyal vassals like Brzk and Margaret) also diluted his ability to take out Dulinor in a timely manner.

None of this is unrealistic.  All of this has historical precedent.
 
As far as Lucan's personality goes, that was just another facet of the 'looney-tunes' narrative & badly needed to 'not happen'!
(The entire story of how only Lucan emerged alive (but now severely deranged) was just another 'zinger' that exceeded, by quite a bit, my ability to suspend disbelief)

Well, there HAVE been some rather odd ducks who have found themselves at the top of dynastic totem poles.  Often they are figureheads for others.  Lucan being an unpleasant narcissistic prat is consistent with my experience of some (but surprisingly few) people who have climbed to positions of great responsibility.  What IS a surprise is that his toxic personality would be the defining feature of how he is portrayed in the media.

But once again, GDW canon materials make the whole Rebellion era look like the result of a dozen high-profile individuals all pushing their cardboard chits around a map of the Imperium.  (Is this a surprise, given who GDW and their customers were??)  Consequently, far too much description was given of "getting into the mind of ..." and, honestly, it makes those characters - good and bad - look thoroughly 2-dimensional.

Real history is filled with fascinating people that intrigue us BECAUSE we can only judge the "content of their character" by the actions that they did.  They didn't leave us with journals and personal memos like Strephon, Norris, et al.  

GDW would have been better off with all these characters as shadowy figures well above the heads of characters.  The Imperium would have been coming apart and, at absolute best, the PCs might have got a very small glimpse of the motivations of the individuals involved (though undoubtedly faction propaganda would have been thick on the ground).

So how about this:
*  Dulinor, Lucan, et al are unknowable as individuals.  All we can see are their actions.
*  In fact, those actions are being taken by factions and historical forces.  The individuals are, at best, figureheads.  More likely, they are puppets.
*  "Dulinor" are the reformers: strong enough to hold the reins of power in regions that have been victimised by the status quo (such as Ilelish); but also having a notable presence on the ground in the Capital.
*  "Lucan" are the established military bigwigs (or else the conservative Great Houses): they probably weren't happy with Strephon's reforms, but could go with it.  Might have been cultivating Lucan as a lobbyist within the Imperial Family even before Strephon's assassination.  Were able to use military connections to convince some of the peripheral fleets to abandon their posts and support Lucan.  Think the Praetorian Guard.  It wasn't Lucan who was personally ruthless that set the tone for his faction as such; it was the fact that his entire faction was a group of cynics seeking to protect their position and privilege that brought out the worst in "Lucan".
*  Sector Fleets are drawn mainly from the population of their names sectors.  They will have a degree of dual loyalty to the Imperium and Navy as a whole, but also to their local commanders and homeworlds.
*  Norris/Brzk/Craig are the local military forces, the ones who actually do the fighting.  Doesn't really matter who is the Emperor, just look out for your local province.  And maybe take a shot at the big prize, but only if it produces a payoff for your local supporters.

Cheers,
KenB