Re: [TML] MT: COACC Guardian-Class Orbital Battle Station Thomas RUX 16 Jun 2019 01:59 UTC
Hello Thomas Jones-Low, Thank you very much, I did look through my tattered copy of Striker and searching my recently purchased PDF copy. As usual I missed the information. I plugged the 250 and 500 mm sizes into my TAC Missile spreadsheet. The thing that killed the design is the amount of propellant needed to reach the planetary range of 50,000 km Active EMS array. Tom Rux > On June 15, 2019 at 4:44 PM Thomas Jones-Low <xxxxxx@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Striker, book 2, p41-42. Integration with Traveller, Rule 75: Naval vessels, > section 3: Missiles. > > Turret-mounted missiles have warheads equivalent to 15 cm CPR gun rounds; > bay-mounted missiles have warheads equivalent to 25 cm CPR gun rounds. There are > 25 launchers in a 50-ton bay, and 50 launchers in a 100-ton bay. > > Ship missiles have the same guidance system types as tac missiles: they may be > target designated, homing, or drone. A launcher may fire one missile per turn, > in the friendly fire phase. > > The whole of rule 75 is very interesting, and very relevant to the MT design > system. > > On 6/15/2019 6:45 PM, Thomas RUX wrote: > > Hello Thomas Jones-Low and Cian Witherspoon, > > > > > > Thank you both for the replies > > > > > > I consider the design rules/instructions to be procedures. I have be taught to follow the procedures as they are written. Any changes to the procedures are documented. > > > > > > Donald McKinney in the Consolidated CT and MT Consolidated Errata documents asked for help in verifying the designs with the material form the documents. While I was working on the CT X-Boat Tender I tried to reverse engineer the pop-up turret and mobile turret. I was unsuccessful in reverse engineering the turrets from the write-up and could not find a source in any of my CT books. However, I did somehow stumble on the article "Bait: Q-ships in Traveller" by Steven Brinich and James Schwar featured in Challenge 25. Knowing the specification I took a stab at building the mobile turret. > > > > > > I presented the pop-up turret specification that came from Challenge 25 and provided the steps I took to determine the mobile turret's characteristics when I sent them onto Donald McKinney for review and on the Citizen's of the Imperium errata forum. I did not receive a reply from my email to Donald which I kind of expected knowing how busy he was, but the response on the forum made me abandon the project. > > > > > > However, on ct-starships on yahoo groups I did submit two designs one with a pop-up turret and the other with mobile turrets . The one with the pop-up turret I cited the material in Challenge 25 and the other I included how I came up with the specifications for the mobile turrets. > > > > > > GT: Traveller does identify that spacecraft turret missiles are 250mm and bay missiles are 500mm. My search, whihc means I may have missed the information, in CT, including Mayday and SS3, and MT do not not turn up a diameter. TNE and T4 allows one to design missiles using the diameter of the warhead. T20 and MgT appear to be the same as CT in regards to missiles. > > > > > > From MT: Referee's Manual p. 71: "A hardpoint is an installation point for a weapon." > > > > > > In my opinion the explanation does not indicate that the hardpoints are indicators of structural stress. The Titanic had hardpoints built into the hull allowing for the installation of guns. The Traveller hardpoints in my opinion perform the same function. To be honest I think that 10 hardpoints for both bays is a bit excessive, especially for the 50 d-ton bay. > > > > > > If the orbital battle station had a note in the Other block that the bay hardpoint requirement was modified there would be need to "work out" what was done when trying to check specification provided. I'm not to keen on not having station keeping thrusters on the orbital battle station either, which is what I did in the spreadsheet. I may try to modify a copy of the spreadsheet to get include them at some point. > > > > > > Thank you again for your comments. > > > > > > Tom Rux > > > > > > > > > >> On June 15, 2019 at 8:30 AM Cian Witherspoon <xxxxxx@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> Yeah, I would say the hardpoints rule is for vessels that need to do more than be a floating weapons platform - in short, the hardpoints indicate the degree of structural stress from movement the ship is designed to withstand, so a non-moving vessel, or a very slow one (less than a tenth-g I would say) doesn’t need to follow those rules. Or if you build the ship around the weapon system it serves as part of the superstructure. > >> > >> On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 06:11 Thomas Jones-Low < xxxxxx@gmail.com mailto:xxxxxx@gmail.com > wrote: > >> > >> ?space?-- I've done similar kinds of technical rule violations in building (unpublished) > > designs in order to match a ship I had seen or idea I had. But I have never seen > > anyone describe their designs as "violating rule X", so you generally have to > > figure this out as you go. > > > > I would have to double check my references, but my memory is that the turret > > launched missiles are 250mm diameter and the bay launched missiles are 500mm > > diameter. > > > > The challenge here is if you go to Special Supplement 3: Missile in Traveller > > (included in JTAS 21), take that volume of a missile, but using the 250mm > > diameter, you end up with a missile 11 feet long. Not exactly an easy thing go > > manage. > > > > On 6/15/2019 7:50 AM, Thomas RUX wrote: > >> Morning from the Pacific Northwest Thomas Jones-Low, > >> > >> Thank you once again for another reply in a long list of my questions. > >> > >> One of my issues with the design sequence is when designers "technically" violates the build instructions without indicating the choice which causes me to think I've done something wrong. Of course my attempts to follow the rules often result in an unintended violations. > >> > >> I was not thinking that a 100 d-ton missile bay was being installed in a 20 d-ton space. My thought was the missile bay is being crammed into a 120 d-ton space. I dug through my MT design spreadsheets until I found one that was mostly complete and ran the design. Comparing the numbers, since the specification sheet has not been worked out yet, in the spreadsheet with the sample the only number I did not match, as usual, is the cost. My cost is about MCr3 more than the one listed. > >> > >> Thank you for the recommendation about building a 100 d-ton missile using CT Striker which I will try since I bashed together a spreadsheet for the MT: COACC 80 mm rockets. > >> > >> Tom Rux > >> > >>> On June 15, 2019 at 3:49 AM Thomas Jones-Low < xxxxxx@gmail.com mailto:xxxxxx@gmail.com > wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> While this is technically a violation of the build rules the MT design system > >>> does not have a ship weapons design sequence. There is no way to build the > >>> equivalent of a 100 ton missile bay launcher. So the designer was taking the > >>> idea of a 100 ton bay weapon and using that as part of the design sequence. > >>> > >>> It is clear from real life designs, many fiction sources, and even some hints > >>> in Traveller that a free-floating weapons platform is a possible thing. > >>> > >>> So don't think of this as a 20 ton ship mounting a 100 ton bay, think of this > >>> as a 100 ton bay mounting just enough equipment to operate independently. I > >>> highly doubt you can simply slap this into the 100-ton bay socket on a cruiser > >>> or battleship. Though there may be people who would try. > >>> > >>> If you really wanted to be complete about this, you could go back to the > >>> striker design system and build a 500mm space launch missile system with > >>> autoloaders and large magazine and see how much you can fit into 100 ton space > >>> (mass is no object here). > >>> > >>> On 6/14/2019 11:51 PM, Thomas RUX wrote: > >>>> Howdy Cian, > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> From MT: COACC page 93 > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> GUARDIAN-CLASS (TL12) ORBITAL BATTLE STATION > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> CraftlD: Orbital Battle Station, TL12, MCr21 > >>>> Hull: 901225, Disp = 120, Config. = 4, Armor = 40F > >>>> Power: 1 /2, Fusion = 6 Mw, Duration 120/360 > >>>> Commo: Radio = Planetary, datalink only > >>>> Sensors: Active EMS = Planetary > >>>> Off: Missile = x09 > >>>> Batt 1 > >>>> Bear 1 > >>>> Computer: 1 x 1 > >>>> Other: Fuel = 120 klloiters, ObjSize = Small, EMLevel = faint > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> The Guardian-class orbital battle station is armed with a 100-ton missile bay containing two battery rounds of UCP Factor-9 nuclear missiles. Once activated in orbit, it automatically acquires and fires upon shipping that does not respond to the correct pre-programmed transponder code. It is easily and cheaply mass produced as a last line of defense in low orbit. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> My question about the 100-ton bay stems from the CT requirement that a ship can have 1 bay per 1,000 tons of hull which I thought was the same in MT. Searching my PDF copy of the Referee's manual I did not locate a similar requirement. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> However, the MT: Referee's Manual requires 10 hardpoints to mount a bay. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> A 120 displacement ton hull does not have 10 hardpoints to mount a 100-ton bay. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Hopefully you or someone else can figure out what I'm not getting. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Thank you for the question and hopefully the material provided will provide the information needed to solve the possible issue. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Tom Rux > >>>> > >>>>> On June 14, 2019 at 7:09 PM Cian Witherspoon < xxxxxx@gmail.com mailto:xxxxxx@gmail.com > wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> What’s the specs on everything else? The battle station might be built around it, instead of the usual procedure. > >>>>> > >>>>> On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 17:19 Thomas RUX < xxxxxx@comcast.net mailto:xxxxxx@comcast.net mailto: xxxxxx@comcast.net mailto:xxxxxx@comcast.net > wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > > > >>>>>> Hello all, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I've run into a bit of a problem with Guardian-Class Orbital Battle Station on MT: COACC p. 93. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> In the Other block of the Specification sheet the battle station has a 100-ton missile bay. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Unfortunately, the Hull block has Disp = 120 displacement tons. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Can anyone suggest a solution otherwise the Battle Station has to be really reworked> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Tom Rux > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ----- > >>>>>> The Traveller Mailing List > >>>>>> Archives at http://archives.simplelists.com/tml > >>>>>> Report problems to xxxxxx@simplelists.com mailto:xxxxxx@simplelists.com mailto: xxxxxx@simplelists.com mailto:xxxxxx@simplelists.com > >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this list please go to > >>>>>> http://archives.simplelists.com > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > > >>>>> ----- > >>>>> The Traveller Mailing List > >>>>> Archives at http://archives.simplelists.com/tml > >>>>> Report problems to xxxxxx@simplelists.com mailto:xxxxxx@simplelists.com > >>>>> To unsubscribe from this list please go to > >>>>> http://archives.simplelists.com > >>>>> > >>>> ----- > >>>> The Traveller Mailing List > >>>> Archives at http://archives.simplelists.com/tml > >>>> Report problems to xxxxxx@simplelists.com mailto:xxxxxx@simplelists.com > >>>> To unsubscribe from this list please go to > >>>> http://archives.simplelists.com > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Thomas Jones-Low > >>> Work: xxxxxx@softstart.com mailto:xxxxxx@softstart.com > >>> Home: xxxxxx@gmail.com mailto:xxxxxx@gmail.com > >>> ----- > >>> The Traveller Mailing List > >>> Archives at http://archives.simplelists.com/tml > >>> Report problems to xxxxxx@simplelists.com mailto:xxxxxx@simplelists.com > >>> To unsubscribe from this list please go to > >>> http://archives.simplelists.com > >> ----- > >> The Traveller Mailing List > >> Archives at http://archives.simplelists.com/tml > >> Report problems to xxxxxx@simplelists.com mailto:xxxxxx@simplelists.com > >> To unsubscribe from this list please go to > >> http://archives.simplelists.com > >> > > > > > > -- > > Thomas Jones-Low > > Work: xxxxxx@softstart.com mailto:xxxxxx@softstart.com > > Home: xxxxxx@gmail.com mailto:xxxxxx@gmail.com > > ----- > > The Traveller Mailing List > > Archives at http://archives.simplelists.com/tml > > Report problems to xxxxxx@simplelists.com mailto:xxxxxx@simplelists.com > > To unsubscribe from this list please go to > > http://archives.simplelists.com > > > > > > ----- > > The Traveller Mailing List > > Archives at http://archives.simplelists.com/tml > > Report problems to xxxxxx@simplelists.com > > To unsubscribe from this list please go to > > http://archives.simplelists.com > > > > ----- > > The Traveller Mailing List > > Archives at http://archives.simplelists.com/tml > > Report problems to xxxxxx@simplelists.com > > To unsubscribe from this list please go to > > http://archives.simplelists.com > > > > > -- > Thomas Jones-Low > Work: xxxxxx@softstart.com > Home: xxxxxx@gmail.com > ----- > The Traveller Mailing List > Archives at http://archives.simplelists.com/tml > Report problems to xxxxxx@simplelists.com > To unsubscribe from this list please go to > http://www.simplelists.com/confirm.php?u=zZOCJCw2BI9jPrGTB4OJoibiHbbTEiok